Maureen Werrbach 00:00:00  Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Group Practice Exchange podcast. Today I have a close friend of mine who’s been on the show at least one time, possibly twice already, Patrick Casale. And we’re going to be talking about neurodivergent entrepreneurship and what it’s like to be neurodiverse and own multiple businesses. So for any of you who are neurodivergent, enjoy.

Maureen Werrbach 00:00:22  Welcome to the Group Practice Exchange podcast, where we talk about all things related to group practice ownership. I’m your host Maureen Werrbach.

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Maureen Werrbach 00:02:15 Hey Patrick what’s up?

Patrick Casale 00:02:21  Thanks for having me on.

Maureen Werrbach 00:02:22  Yeah thanks for coming back on. So I figured today we can just talk about just you and I as neurodivergent folks, like our experience with being business owners.

Maureen Werrbach 00:02:34  And I think we could talk about both the business of, like, group practice, but also we have, you know, a consulting businesses that looks a little different, what that’s like and how we do it. Yeah. Tell me, how has you, being neurodivergent shaped your entrepreneurial journey or like, shaped you as an employer either one.

Patrick Casale 00:02:56  Two big questions. Yeah I would say that it’s shaped my entrepreneurial journey in every sense of the word because neurodivergent. People are really outside of the box thinkers and they’re very creative. Typically, I would love to get an accurate poll of like, how many entrepreneurs identify as neurodivergent. I imagine that the number would be quite high. So it just allows you to think outside the box. It allows you to kind of harness that hyper focus and creativity when it’s really coming over you in that like flow state, too. And I know that you and I both get like an enormous amount accomplished in short bursts of time, and that may not work for everybody else like some people may really need, like a very traditional structured 9 to 5 work setting.

Patrick Casale 00:03:40  But that has never worked for me and never will. So I need the flexibility, freedom and autonomy to be creative when the creativity strikes me.

Maureen Werrbach 00:03:50  Yep, I’m the same way I feel like. And maybe this would be if you could find that stat. I feel like one of the reasons that entrepreneurship was so enticing to me was that I always felt like I could never find a workplace that felt good for me. Yeah, and I don’t think I pinpointed it in those moments. I didn’t tie it to being neurodivergent. So I have had ADHD diagnosis since I was in college, so I’ve always known that piece. And then autism is just a couple year diagnosis, so much more recent, but I don’t think I was pinpointing it to that. I remember just saying, like, I feel like they don’t value or appreciate or like harness my skills the way I like. I have so much more to offer that, like they seem to not see. I remember those feelings, but also in just in terms of like the way I work best, most work environments aren’t conducive to that.

Maureen Werrbach 00:04:45  And so I remember just being like, I just want to work for myself because I know I can provide myself with the experience that I need to have to like to be good at what I’m doing. And I don’t think I necessarily tied that to being neurodivergent, but I now I totally do.

Patrick Casale 00:04:58  Yeah, I think that in so many neurotypical workplaces, it’s just not set up in a way that’s going to be supportive to our systems and our communication styles and our needs and our productivity abilities. And I would always think, like, I can get so much done in such a short amount of time, why do we have to be here until 5:00 today? Like, why do I have to be here at 9 a.m. if I haven’t slept the night before, which is so common for neurodivergent people. So the ability to have control over my environment and situation is, is paramount. And it made me realize, like, I’m not employable anymore. I don’t think I could ever go back to a setting where I had an employer telling me what to do or what the expectations were, and I think it just works out really well when we get to have some control over our environments and our day to day and our schedule and what we say yes or no to.

Maureen Werrbach 00:05:49  Yeah. Another thing that I feel like has been there’s been plenty of things that have been unhelpful in my journey being neurodivergent, but something that I found to be helpful is my grit. Like I feel like you mentioned a few minutes ago about like, being really, like hyper focused on certain things, if you like it. And I, I’ve always been like, business ownership feels like a hobby to me in a lot of ways. Like I have an intense amount of interest in. I get easily bored with things. My ADHD side is like likes new offerings like so do new things in my business. But I have like I view being an entrepreneur or owning businesses as like my interest in a way. And what I found was because I’m a pretty sensitive person emotionally, like usually like attuned to other people’s emotions and things. But what I found was in the failures of business, for a person who is a perfectionist who, like, always wants to have everything right, I have never had like when things didn’t go well in my business, not employee relations stuff, but like the structure of a business, ideas that didn’t turn out to be profitable.

Maureen Werrbach 00:07:01  Like I thought those things actually like are energizing in like my I want to peel it apart even more and be like, so why didn’t this work? And I used to, I mean, I, I used to say I have grit like a lot of grit through like failures within the business. And I think the more I’m in business, the more I’m realizing that I think my my grit specifically, I don’t know if others neurodivergent folks would feel the same, is like my grit is tied to my neuro divergence, because I feel like this is such an interest of mine that when something doesn’t go the way I thought, I’m like, all in on it where other people would give up or be like, you know, that didn’t work. I’m like, I need to figure it out, you know? Which is led to me, I think being successful in a lot of ways.

Patrick Casale 00:07:44  Yeah, absolutely. I think that there’s this deeply inherent analytical process for a lot of neurodivergent people where we deep dive things, especially if we’re interested in them and we’re really passionate and we try to figure out all of the details.

Patrick Casale 00:07:58  And sometimes you can say like, oh, there’s perfectionism involved. But oftentimes I think it’s just like, that’s just the way our brains process information to try to figure out how does this work? How do I put this together? How does it become profitable? How do I create it? Oh, that didn’t work. The brain doesn’t go into like, wave the white flag, okay. Give up like, right. Next thing it’s more like, well, that didn’t work. What if I tried it this way? Or like, what if I created this new process for this thing and all of a sudden you’re like, oh, this is like really exhilarating. And I also think there’s an enormous amount of resiliency in neurodivergent people, because for most of our lives, we are trying to adapt, pivot, change, shift, create and figure things out in a world that isn’t always set up for us. So like there is a lot of constant evaluation of like, everything we’re doing, whether it’s personal or professional.

Maureen Werrbach 00:08:54  Yeah. So I know you and I are both autistic and ADHD. I just find myself continuously like laughing internally about how much they butt heads with each other. Sometimes as an entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah. And I know you posted recently about it. I feel like a couple of weeks ago. Tell me a little bit about that.

Patrick Casale 00:09:15  Yeah, it’s a good point. So like I’m actually going through I was doing content creation before we jumped on here. And my social media person gave me like a list of, like topics to cover. And we’ve been doing a lot of videos and posts about like autistic, ADHD parts and how polarizing they can be and how it feels like a tug of war. And it really is like the epitome. I was just writing all these examples down of like, ADHD is like, oh my God, new project, new idea, creativity, spontaneity, stimulation, excitement, pursue at all costs. Autism is like, holy shit, pump the brakes like we’ve already committed to so many things.

Patrick Casale 00:09:48  My system is so overwhelmed. All I want to do is sit in the dark and watch Naked and Afraid reruns over and over and over again, and not have to do anything or respond to any demand or any obligation. And I think it’s a moment by moment existence for a lot of us where we are constantly entrenched in that like internalized battle where ADHD so badly needs dopamine, excitement, spontaneity, impulsivity, creation to kind of combat depression and burnout and boredom. And autism is like, hey, can somebody please turn off the calendar scheduling capabilities for this other side of my brain? Because like you say yes to all of these things, when in reality, to avoid autistic burnout, you’ve got a sensory soothe and decompress and unmask and relax and recharge. And you can’t do that when you’re bouncing from idea to idea to idea.

Maureen Werrbach 00:10:48  How do you do that? I actually am not great at it. I feel like I literally am the minute to minute where I am overdoing it. So like today is podcast day and I have nine episodes to podcast.

Maureen Werrbach 00:11:02  And so I want to do one day a quarter and knock them all out. But then I know I’m going to be like overwhelmed by the end of this. But then I noticed that when I get to like that burnt out place, like I sit and do nothing, but it also doesn’t feel good. Like it’s not like I’m like intentionally being like I’m not doing anything and I’m going to watch Ted Lasso or Game of Thrones. I literally I might be doing those things, but it feels unintentional and it feels like result of burnout, which feels very different.

Patrick Casale 00:11:34  Yeah. And the flip side, and I was talking about this on divergent conversations with Meghan the other day. We are doing an ADHD series where we were talking about ADHD and restlessness. And yeah, I think the restlessness piece is honestly the most uncomfortable part of the process because that internal restlessness of never feeling satisfied, never feeling like you can be still or present or content and constantly seeking the next thing, yeah, is honestly torturous and it’s so hard to be present or just be content with like whatever the day has to bring an offer.

Patrick Casale 00:12:11  And I think ADHD can. Productivity can be interwoven with like grind hustle capitalism two of like Gotta be creative. I’m an entrepreneur. I’ve got to create the next thing. Sitting here watching Ted Lasso is not productive. Like what am I doing with my time. And I think that is just unbelievably challenging for a lot of people.

Maureen Werrbach 00:12:32  That is what I think I need the help with the most. I notice as soon as you said this, I literally got goosebumps.

Patrick Casale 00:12:38  I saw you go like this.

Maureen Werrbach 00:12:40  Yeah, restlessness is, I think, my biggest issue. I literally have moments where I feel like I so I’ll like start to stand up and like walk with my computer or if I have nothing, if I feel I never have nothing to do. But sometimes I feel like I just don’t want to do the work things, but I also am just not sitting and relaxing. I like will get up and then drive around nowhere. I’m like, I don’t know what I’m doing, I just need to go.

Maureen Werrbach 00:13:07  I don’t know where. And then I’m like driving and I’m like, this is a waste. I don’t even want to try, but I feel like my body doesn’t know what to do. And it’s like, go somewhere.

Patrick Casale 00:13:17  Yeah, and I think that’s a challenge, right? Like for autistic ADHD ers, being so aware of how uncomfortable your body is at all times means that you’re constantly trying to figure out solutions on how to alleviate and soothe it. And I do the same thing. Like I’ll be on my couch, tired, exhausted, depleted, burnt out potentially. And the other side is like, I’m so uncomfortable in my own skin. I feel so restless. I need to go do something. Whether it is like you said, drive around aimlessly, go run an errand, go see a friend. Even though like, you’re kind of not wanting to be social, but.

Patrick Casale 00:13:50  Like, yeah.

Patrick Casale 00:13:51  I’m going to force myself to go do this thing because it’s so uncomfortable to just be. And it is a really challenging experience.

Patrick Casale 00:14:02  Yeah.

Maureen Werrbach 00:14:02  Are you laughing? Because I’m literally like shaking side to side. If anyone was watching this video, I’m just like, la la la. Stay focused on the conversation and my Adderall should have kicked in by now. So kind of going full circle here, because I know we only have a few more minutes left. Talking about the challenges from a personal side even. What do you do? Like, let’s not talk burnout because burnout is, like too late, right? What do you do to make those two parts work together so that you can be mostly focused? Yeah.

Patrick Casale 00:14:34  Oh, I’d say if I can allow for like a 7030 split for ADHD to run the show, then I feel okay with that.

Patrick Casale 00:14:40  Oh.

Patrick Casale 00:14:41  100% can’t be all or nothing like. So I try really hard to be intentional with my schedule. I try to do like a week and a month zoom out of like, what can I theoretically put into the schedule? What can I energetically say yes or no to getting much more secure in your boundaries, getting much more secure and like not chasing the shiny object of like, ooh, opportunity, ooh, opportunity.

Patrick Casale 00:15:03  It’s like, no, I’ve got to really do an intentional reevaluation of everything I say yes or no to from a cost benefit analysis And that includes like social events too. So being really intentional, sensory soothing at all costs, like everything you do has to be geared towards soothing your sensory system, whether that be comfortable clothing, comfortable environments, comfortable temperatures, fidget toys, whatever that needs to be done at all costs, and then ultimately really trying to unmask as much as possible. So whether that’s at home safely or with friend groups that you feel comfortable with or partnerships or whatever, but really allowing yourself to embrace your your unique like quirky ways and neurodivergent in general and without like shame or stigma or feeling unsafe. So those things are really helpful. And I think allowing like ADHD to run with the creativity to some extent, but also putting some mechanisms like checks and balances in place to come. Like when I get an idea, I put it in idea log and Google Drive that I have color coordinated red, green, yellow, green ideas are like, yes, absolutely, we’re pursuing them.

Patrick Casale 00:16:11  Yellow is like a proceed with caution. Come revisit in a couple of days, see if it still feels energizing. If it doesn’t, it becomes red. Red doesn’t mean it’s never going to happen. It just means like right now is not the right season of life to pursue this thing. So a constant reevaluation on a week by week basis of all of the ideas that I have, so that I don’t say yes to every single thing that comes into my mind.

Maureen Werrbach 00:16:33  I love that idea. I might steal it for it.

Patrick Casale 00:16:36  Everyone else will steal away. Make it your own.

Patrick Casale 00:16:38  And like, really?

Patrick Casale 00:16:40  Yes, intentionality is super, super helpful. And autism, love, structure and categorization. So like for me that’s very visually appealing and soothing and it works out really.

Patrick Casale 00:16:49  Well I love.

Maureen Werrbach 00:16:50  That. Well, thanks for coming on and just chatting back and forth. I feel like this is definitely a fly on the wall situation for listeners to just hear us talking about this, so I appreciate you.

Patrick Casale 00:17:02  Thanks for having me.

Maureen Werrbach 00:17:04  Thanks for listening. Give us five stars on whatever podcast streaming service you use, and I’ll see you next week.